Monday, March 10, 2008

Third Rail...uh, Party Needs Hazardous Waste Designation

The continuance of our country as a civilized nation is in peril. Your vote, every intelligent vote, needs to be cast to maintain it.

This morning, again, the discussion at comments on Eschaton needs more attention. As we went around again on the hazards of wasting a vote on Ralph Nader, Ross Perot, Ron Paul and the like. This morning, we had a commenter who does really think he should vote for Ralph Nader because the choices of Obama or Hillary do not make him think he will be represented in the fashion he would like. Of course, the reasoning is specious on its surface, but I have a few choice comments responding to this confusion that I think are worth a look.

To quote filkertom:

Addressing issues would be very appropriate in a better situation. Unfortunately, there are two factors which you seem determined not to notice yourself.

First, Nader himself has not and does not address the issues at any other time besides when he stirs up the pot regarding a potential presidential run. Yes, his advocacy groups are out there, but he himself is not, and it highlights one of his greatest weaknesses as a candidate: the inability to connect to people, to sell them on himself and his ideas. And if you refuse to see that that is as big a part, perhaps the biggest part, of campaigning, then I don't know what else to tell you.

Second, he has only proven that he can get exactly enough votes to not get elected to anything and to screw things up. If he's serious about changing government, why doesn't he prove that he can in fact get elected? Why not go for state office, or for Congress, get in there and do some more productive street-level stuff? He's always been a scrapper; go to where the fights are.

He has not. He is at this point a frightening combination of unrealistic idealist and stubborn narcissist, and he refuses to see that he cannot bludgeon the American people into accepting a campaign slogan which roughly translates to Eat your vegetables, you morons, they'll soften your damn stool.

filkertom |

then Southern Beale:
Let's all sprinkle magic fairy dust over Ralph Nader, maybe he'll actually make it up to half of one percent of the popular vote this time, bwaahaaa.

and mogwai:
anti-Nader ad quotes parts of that news release as coming from a "right-wing group." The words are quoted accurately and in context, though the description of the group as "right-wing" is a matter of opinion.

Citizens for a Sound Economy is a nonprofit, tax-exempt group co-chaired by Dick Armey, the former Republican Majority Leader in the House, and C. Boyden Gray, former White House counsel to George H.W. Bush, the current President’s father. It describes itself as devoted to “free markets and limited government“ and claims thousands of local activists. It pushes to make Bush’s tax cuts permanent, cut federal spending, create private Social Security accounts, enact school vouchers and enact a “flat tax” in place of the current system of higher rates for higher incomes.

it is well documented that some Republican-leaning groups have worked for Nader, and that a few wealthy Republican donors have given money to the Nader campaign.

that was in 2004, nader is a fool-tool-tr00l

mogwai

All of these arguments are valid, but may I just point out, what everyone probably well knows, that in 2000 Nader promised in order to get support that he would not campaign anywhere that a vote for him would make a difference, and despite his promise, he campaigned in Florida. Enough delusional vote went to him to elect the present occupier of the White House. This should be disaster enough to keep anyone responsible from voting for him, or any other improbable candidate.

I repeat:
The continuance of our country as a civilized nation is in peril. Your vote needs to be cast to maintain it.

Long ago I was involved in Maryland politics, and having managed a very successful campaign was asked to manage another one. I did, and therefore was very closely acquainted with what went on. The opponent, a candidate backed by powerful moneyed interests because he supported their causes rather than his constituents' interests, would have been defeated except for a third, 'independent', candidate's pulling off just enough of the vote to throw the election to the opponent. We knew, and it was not hidden, that the main backer and supporter of the 'independent' was a close ally of the actual opponent.

The election of those who don't represent the public, who violate their oaths of office, should be eschewed. We need to act in sensible, and responsible, ways if we are to get this nation out of the gravely dangerous position it is in.

All the posts at cabdrollery are directed toward pointing readers toward the truth, and please let us know if we make any mistakes, we will correct them. If you think that returning this country to the worst administration in history is in any way desirable, please let us know your arguments.

********************************************************

Noted in a Dallas Morning News op-ed yesterday:

Orthodox Easter is coming at the end of April, and meat will be back on my family's table. But to the best I'm able to provide, it will be meat raised by Christian small farmers in the Dallas area or otherwise produced in a morally responsible way. (Emphasis added.)

While I have not noted that raising meat produces a lot of atheists, the doctrine of those raising anything I eat has not struck me as a proper concern of mine in any way. And though ql often visits the Amish markets, and praises their output, she has yet to advocate their theology because of their cheeses, that I have noticed.

IOW, huh?

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12 Comments:

Blogger Dirk Gently said...

ha. i notice that you did not quote me.

it is simplistic and wrong to blame nader for bush's theft of the presidency in 2000. as much as people need a scapegoat, it just didn't happen.

what has happened, though, is that any time someone quotes nader on issues like universal healthcare, the bloated military budget or the need to immediately withdraw from iraq, those ideas are slimed with nader hatred. which works very well for our corporate republican and "centrist" overlords.

11:09 AM  
Blogger Dirk Gently said...

Of course, the reasoning is specious on its surface

btw, what do you mean by this? who are you to tell someone by whom his views would be represented? not to sound rude (it's a quote) but you've got lot of damn gall.

11:12 AM  
Blogger Ruth said...

to tell the truth, dirk gently, while I respect your views, I didn't see what you said on this a.m.'s thread, and I only chose a few quotes from many. I haven't seen what you say, that Nader's remarks are slimed. and CityKid talks about a world with lots of respect for law, one that is the opposite of the one he'll get if another unconstitutional regime gets into the WH. but yeh, I got gall, and will insist that if Nader hadn't convinced a whole lot of voters that there wasn't any difference between Dems and the darkside, we would not be at war now. His basic argument was a lie.

12:06 PM  
Anonymous larry, dfh said...

I think if nader hadn't run in FL they still would have stolen the vote there. Their level of fraud in FL was truly monumental. I think nader made the difference in OR. Also, don't forget, Cynthia McKinney is running as Green. I actually like her better than either Dem, but then...

12:32 PM  
Blogger ryanshaunkelly said...

Gravel Kucinich Paul Nader;
dare speak truth,
demand peace.

Honesty compassion intelligence guts -

http://prorev.com/#apart

4:04 PM  
Anonymous ifthethunderdontgetya™³²®© said...

...which works very well for our corporate republican and "centrist" overlords.

11:09 AM


In sharp contrast to voting for Ralph? I know they hated that.
~

5:40 PM  
Blogger filkertom said...

I'm flattered that you quoted me. :) Dirk, I think a combination of several factors led to BushCo, and Nader was only one of them. But he was one; he made it easier for the Bushies to steal Florida. His insistence that Dems and Repubs are the same muddied over their profound differences. And Ruth is absolutely right -- Nader's campaign hijinks in Florida were a violation of his own word on the matter.

5:33 AM  
Blogger moondancer said...

The more likely scenario for a "wasted vote" is the emerging candidate that usurped the nomination. If Clinton manages to win the popular vote or pledged count fine. But if she wins by somehow picking off super delegates, I will not vote for her. Whether I just vote blue on the down ticket or find an alternative candidate is moot. But that is the likely scenario for 08. I suspect there is a large block that shares my feeling.

8:41 AM  
Blogger thepoetryman said...

I may be confused, but what I have gathered from the post and the comments is that if one votes for Nader...one is screwing up...but if one votes for McCain one is not. And if one votes for green one is not. And if one votes for Dems one is not. In other words the only vote that counts in our corrupt(ing) system is Democrat or Republican.

That 2 party system? The 2 party system that has given us,
(in recent memory)
Cold War
Reaganomics
Blackhawk Down
Iran/Contra
NAFTA
9-11
Endless occupation
Enormous debt
Misery and heartache to millions and millions worldwide
Tapped our phones
Bullied and tasered citizenry
Given huge tax cuts to the richest and threatened (ing) to make them permanent
Put our economy on a downward, upward, downward, upward, downward spindly legged spiral
Abu Ghraib
Gitmo
Extraordinary rendition
Water-boarding as sport
Diminished (ing) greenhouse
Carbon emissions from hell Hummers
18 mpg
Oil dependence
The Bible as constitution Conservative courts
The idea that the media is Liberal
Doting mother to Israel
Abusive parent of the globe
Pork, pork, and more pork
Party over country politics...

That 2 party system?

I will concede that the lesser of two evils might be the best, or only, avenue to take as long as we don't forget our history and push- no- Shove back and continue to shove our needs back at them until they give in to the people, until they represent the people, until the corporate side begins to crack and until the constitution is again the living word of America!

Yes. I will agree that if one is to vote their conscience then one must also vote intelligently. It's the "slow and steady wins the race" kind of strategy...

Change is a coming... It is rather obvious by the prospect of having our next president be either African-American or a woman. That cannot be ignored...

It is "we the people" who will usher in that change...

Maybe a Nader or a Kucinich can someday sit on the mortal throne... if and when the people make it happen. Someday.

9:22 AM  
Anonymous Green Eagle said...

"That 2 party system? The 2 party system that has given us,
(in recent memory)
........
9-11
Endless occupation
Enormous debt
Misery and heartache to millions and millions worldwide
Tapped our phones
Bullied and tasered citizenry
Given huge tax cuts to the richest and threatened (ing) to make them permanent
Put our economy on a downward, upward, downward, upward, downward spindly legged spiral
Abu Ghraib
Gitmo
Extraordinary rendition
Water-boarding as sport
Diminished (ing) greenhouse
Carbon emissions from hell Hummers
18 mpg
Oil dependence
The Bible as constitution Conservative courts
The idea that the media is Liberal
Doting mother to Israel
Abusive parent of the globe
Pork, pork, and more pork
Party over country politics..."


No. The three party system gave us the things listed above. The two party system would have given us Al Gore.

9:43 AM  
Anonymous MJ said...

It's my vote and I'll vote how I please. I plan on voting for Ron Paul even if others consider it a waste of a vote. Billary, Osama, and McSame are all worthless and will take us down the same path in my opinion. Just a matter of who will get us there faster (of those three). I'd rather tell my grandkids that I voted for who I felt was best (RP) and not who was the lesser evil or some other lame excuse the sheeple say.

12:34 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Yeah, he' right, why bother voting for your principles? Why not vote for one of the people that the two groups deeply intrenched in the perpetual expansion of government have given you to choose from? The media has already told you who can win and who can't. Why should we even bother to try and have more than a two party system? Just continue to vote for the lesser of two evils until there is no difference between them. There will never be a third party that can win. After all who would vote for them? Certainly not anyone who wants real change in DC; only democrats and republicans can bring about that, just like they have for the last 150 years.

10:21 PM  

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