Biblical Hate Group
While I'm not Episcopalian, what I see happening near here is sad to me. Because the church has opened up to women and gays in its clergy, some of its Ft. Worth members are leaving. How anyone can use the Bible to justify prejudice is beyond me.
The hating division of any church doesn't seem to me like a group you'd want to join.
Of course, any church will be better off without people in its congregation who are determined to oppose other folks' way of life. Maybe they can name the new, split, congregation something that will tell prospective members that they are expected to be intolerant. May I suggest Episcopal Church of the Damned?
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As Avedon Carol points out at The Sideshow;
A letter to The Salt Lake Weekly suggests that there's something wrong with a church that can spend $20m to counter gay rights while many Utah families are living in shelters.
The hating division of any church doesn't seem to me like a group you'd want to join.
...the Episcopal Diocese of Fort Worth, including St. Stephen's, is to break officially from the Episcopal Church today, becoming the fourth diocese in the nation to leave since last year over such issues as the ordination of female priests and the acceptance of an openly gay bishop.
Though Ms. Carpenter doesn't agree with everything the Episcopal Church does, she loves it, and doesn't want to leave.
So on Sunday, she and other Episcopal Church loyalists from St. Stephen's plan to hold services at a local women's club.
"It's like a man and woman getting a divorce, and now they have to have two households," she said. "It saddens me greatly."
The 2.2 million-member Episcopal Church and other mainline denominations have long struggled over what is the true Christian approach on social issues. The fight has come to a head among Fort Worth Episcopalians, dividing congregations and setting up a legal showdown.
At the urging of Bishop Jack Iker, delegates to the Fort Worth Diocese's annual convention today are to take the final vote for realigning with a conservative, Argentina-based province of the worldwide Anglican Communion.
Fort Worth clergy and lay delegates overwhelmingly approved the break in a first vote at last year's diocesan convention, and Bishop Iker expects that margin to hold today.
"We no longer see a secure future in the Episcopal Church as traditional believers," he said.
Women as priests
Evidence of the conflict is perhaps best seen in the issue of female priests.
The Episcopal Church officially permitted female priests in 1976, and the Diocese of Dallas had its first in 1985. But the Fort Worth Diocese still hasn't had one.
"It's a departure from the biblical witness," Bishop Iker said, noting that Jesus chose 12 male apostles, "and from the historical practice of the church."
The Episcopal Church decided in 1997 that dioceses must allow female priests. Though that hasn't been enforced in Fort Worth, Bishop Iker is sure the Episcopal Church would eventually force the diocese to comply.
As more evidence of a church galloping down a liberal, nonbiblical path, Bishop Iker points to the 2003 decision by top church leaders to allow an openly gay bishop (the Rev. Gene Robinson of New Hampshire) and the 2006 election of a woman as presiding bishop (the Rev. Katharine Jefferts Schori).
"We're not leaving the Episcopal Church," he said, echoing Ronald Reagan's quip about the Democratic Party. "The Episcopal Church has left us."
Of course, any church will be better off without people in its congregation who are determined to oppose other folks' way of life. Maybe they can name the new, split, congregation something that will tell prospective members that they are expected to be intolerant. May I suggest Episcopal Church of the Damned?
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As Avedon Carol points out at The Sideshow;
A letter to The Salt Lake Weekly suggests that there's something wrong with a church that can spend $20m to counter gay rights while many Utah families are living in shelters.
Labels: Enlightenment, Human Rights, Religion
posted by Ruth at 9:00 AM
23 Comments:
It is truly amazing how those of a liberal mind set, either religious or political can dismiss the reasons that other oppose their ideas. It is not hate but love that requires a Christian to oppose the homosexual life style. I can see many purely secular reasons why the homosexual life style is not a good thing for society and I have written about them on the internet. This however is not the primary reason to oppose inclusion of active homosexual persons in leadership positions in the Holy Catholic Church.
The main reason is that such persons in accordance with a plain reading of Scripture are living in willful sin. We all sin but are required to ask for forgiveness and seek to amend our lives. The problem within the Episcopal Church is that Sodomy is no longer considered sin.
The reasons for women not being priests or bishops are also something I have written about on the internet. Unlike the discussion about active homosexuals in leadership, there is room for discussion about this topic. Where the Episcopal Church went wrong is that it accepted the idea that being a priest or bishop is somehow a civil right. Such logic is very faulty.
There is a scripture which would appear to apply about those who lead others into the homosexual life style and it ends with a comment about a very heavy stone used to mill grain.
traditionalanglican:
About scripture 'which would appear to apply' to various behaviors, I believe one of the few attributed to Jesus is his directions to the rich man who asked if he could follow him. The fellow was told to go and give all he had to the poor and then come follow Him. When you do that, then you might begin to qualify to tell other people how they ought to live.
Of course, the Biblical patriarchs had several wives, so obviously in order to fit into God's plan, we ought to go back to bigamy. Then there were Solomon's 1,000 concubines.
In LEVITICUS 18:19, the Bible forbids a married couple from having sexual intercourse during a woman's period. If they disobey, both shall be executed.
This is Sunday, and I do hope you will keep it holy. Tolerance would be a good beginning.
You know what? The homophobes need to mind their own damn business and do what Jesus REALLY told them to do: take care of the poor and the sick.
Stay the hell out of other people's bedrooms.
It's time people pushed back and put these bigots in their place.
Terry C - Yes We Did!
This however is not the primary reason to oppose inclusion of active homosexual persons in leadership positions in the Holy Catholic Church.
That's funny, given the many homosexual pedophile sexual predators in the Catholic clergy.
There's your faulty logic, bumps.
Is it hate to tell a person not to put their finger in a light socket? Is it hate to tell someone not to take illegal drugs? It is not hate but love. It is shown in Holy Scripture that homosexual acts, commonly called Sodomy are sins. Again my objection is not that people sin, we all do, but rather that the radical religious left is calling what Scripture call sin, as something Holy which the Church should bless.
Said above: Stay the hell out of other people's bedrooms. It is not I who is looking into the bedroom, but radical sodomites who are bringing the bedroom to the street.
It was said above Jesus REALLY told them to do: take care of the poor and the sick. The fact is that he did say so, but not at the exclusion of working to save their soul. I find it interesting that liberals are willing to spend my money to help others. The mission of the Church is not foremost to be a charity, it can be said it is to be a hospital for the human soul.
Said above: That's funny, given the many homosexual pedophile sexual predators in the Catholic clergy. First I said Holy Catholic and not Roman Catholic. There has been a problem within the Roman Catholic Church with homosexual behavior. This is being addressed.
I see here the intolerance when it was said: It's time people pushed back and put these bigots in their place. As Doctor King said we should judge by character, I find nothing wrong in making negative assumptions about character for those who call sin holy.
And I find nothing wrong in making negative assumptions about character for those who call holy what is a sin. Listen: Feel free to believe what you want. Feel free to say it to the hills. That's your right. However, when it goes from argument to coercion, don't be surprised when those of us who don't agree push back. The Buddha said to "pursue your own salvation with diligence" and Jesus said "Judge not". You might be wise to listen to them.
Oh, and intolerance is not advocating for another point of view. Intolerance is refusing the other person's right to disagree.
1 Corinthians, 13:1 "Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal."
Jesus told you to show charity. We just repeated it for you. No one said it was easy.
It is not charity to let a child play in traffic.
Having to find a definition of charity you're comfortable with, that is very far removed from the actual act, speaks very poorly for your church's teachings.
Sticking a finger in a light socket can cause a human being harm in an empirical way. Could traditionalanglican please explain how a physical act of homosexual love is harmful, in the same empirical way?
Thanks in advance.
Same for playing in traffic. Does traditionalanglican think that homosexuality is deadly? Please explain.
Said above: Could traditionalanglican please explain how a physical act of homosexual love is harmful, in the same empirical way?
Also said above: Does traditionalanglican think that homosexuality is deadly? Please explain.
There are references in Holy Scripture which clearly label homosexual acts as sinful. While some people today want to view these scriptures in very creative ways to ignore that fact, the Holy Catholic Church has taught that correct understanding is that homosexual acts are sin.
This is a discussion about God, Church, Sin, and Salvation, so I will not engage in discussion about why homosexual proclivities are problems for society. If you click on traditionalanglican above you will link to where I have written on this topic.
In my view which is the historical view of the Holy Catholic Church, homosexual acts are sin. Sin calls for repentance and forgiveness, not for redefinition as Holy. Charity and love are not the same as affirming someone choices. At time affirming another choice is the charitable and loving thing to do, at other times such as when engaged in behavior which will dam the soul it is not.
As to homosexual acts being harmful in an empirical way, the answer is simple. God has called them sin. I would contend that homosexual lust is not love in the way that God has designed sexual love.
The Episcopal Church at least in the person of the Bishops in California who support the Sodomite agenda has exchanged historical Christian values for a form of humanism. To those who are humanist, which from context I guess at least some on this list are, I cannot explain my position in your terms.
gosh i'm glad that a set of myths written by various grades of tent dwelling nomads and their later admirers has no impact on my life, whatsoever. tradang: you really don't get it, do you? your sky fairy (heh) has yet to strike me down, and i've been sticking my massive strap-on in some very light sockets (gaii *and* race-mixing!!! the horror)
you can babble all you want about what your book of fairy tales "means" to you, and you know what? you just insure that more and more people are going to walk away from your church, and eventually, your silly "faith." you shame the decent people trying to make sense of mythology in a modern world, and make me feel sorry for them, that they have to claim you.
as we say in the gay community: homophobia has only two causes. one: a deep insecurity about one's own ability to please one's partner, and the knowledge that other people are having REALLY GOOD SEX that people like you will never, ever be able to provide. or two: the fact that you're just another boring, hypocritical closet case projecting your own "sin" onto others. how many of you types have i encounted at the gay bars? i've lost count.
get over yourself. and don't make me start demolishing your "scripture" here on ruth and diane's blog. i did my doctoral work at the top ranked divinity school in this country, and i really don't want to shatter your pathetic "faith" with fact.
In as much as a new week begins with an uncertain schedule, this may be my last word. This is my quick response which is why it is so long.
I am a Christian who believes that there are some things that God has commanded. Some things are true not withstanding my ability to understand why they are true. I reject the humanist idea that man is the measure of all things.
While I see some reasons that homosexual proclivities are bad for society, my objection as expressed here is that Holy Scripture is clear on the topic. It is not for me or others to change that which God has clearly said. If an act is against God’s will for man, then it is bad for the man and for society.
This is not a matter of free speech. This is a matter of absolute truth. In the United States and many other places, all are free to express views even views which are damnable by God. But, I also have the right to speak God’s truth as expressed in Holy Scripture.
My comments here started in response to the expression that some fine Christians whom I respect should be called the Episcopal Church of the Damned. The only thing these Christians have done is warrant this title is to stand up for what the Holy Catholic Church has taught for years. They have left the Episcopal Church that has substituted mans judgement for what God has taught. I say this fully realizing that some here feel that man’s judgement is to be properly used to replace God’s judgement. To those in this sorry error, by this posting you have my prayer.
Chicago dyke, it is refreshing to see someone who is an honest liberal. You have clearly rejected the teaching of the Holy Catholic Church, for which it my prayer you repent. It is a matter of honesty which is refreshing compared with the Episcopal Church which has gone humanist but claims to be Christian. I really do not care that you did doctoral work at the top ranked divinity school in this country. You are clearly not teaching that which God’s has taught. You are clearly not expressing Christian views. You are clearly wrapped up in you hate of God, so public engagement in discussion will have very little likelihood of bearing fruit.
You are acting in a self delusional fashion with you claim that those who see Sodomy as sin are in someway envious of your lifestyle. I would suggest that opposition to Sodomy by a Christian is not relevant to their own sexual proclivities. If a Christian has a proclivity to same sex attractions, their opposition to the homosexual act is a matter of virtue. Nevertheless, feel free to continue to bring out again this tried old lie, it says much more about your ego than it does about the topic at hand which I think is homosexual behavior and Christianity.
The peace of God, which passeth all understanding, keep your hearts and minds in the knowledge and love of God, and of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord; and the blessing of God Almighty, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, be amongst you, and remain with you always. Amen.
chicago dyke your last message shows the hate which radical homosexuals have for those who hold to the Christian faith. I by this pray for you and I pity you.
BTW, one of the most positive and loving people you will ever meet is ChiDyke, and she is living a socially conscious lifestyle, which is something I totally admire. But poor TA is unable to see what the message of his/her faith is and will so miss out on the way his/her life could have been 'offered up'. Hate is kinda foreign to us liberals. But of course you know Jesus was a liberal. Makes you crazy, I know.
buck-buck-bwak! look at the little chicken "christian" run away. my, i guess your faith isn't so 'strong' after all, except in terms of the smell.
i don't "hate" you, TA. i am MOCKING you, LAUGHING at you, making the NEENER NEENER noise at your pathetic ignorance and faithless cowardice. i note you don't even try to address my points, nor anyone else's: who would Christ side with? the downtrodden? the socially outcast? or excluders like you? really, it's a simple question, and if you want to toss scripture around, that's one that our side will win. but you know that. which is why you're running away from debate, and making excuses and oversimplifications instead of defending your position with scripture and fact.
baby jeebus weeps at how pathetic his followers have become. oh, i had a terrific orgasm last night. how about you? i bet i know the answer...
This is a matter of absolute truth.
And with this simple statement, this person reveals himself for who he is. People who think they are armed with "absolute truth" are dangerous. It is not the answer but the question that matters.
Lardy. If there is a Hell it's chock full of bigots such as TA, and what a lovely surprise they will get!
What a wonder to behold, a whole group of comments which mock God. This is indeed a sorry state.
I have offered my points and no body choose to follow up. Truth is not the desired outcome here.
Erase bookmark, end discussion.
TA thinks it's GOD! Now there's blasphemy you can believe in!
I'm afraid this is the mindset that allows for abuse of religion, the poor thing doesn't have anything but a set of mindless rote formulae that amount to chattering, and can't follow them back to any meaning. Religion unfortunately is easy for corrupt sorts to misuse, and mislead people with. Very sad, when it is meant to make people better.
In response to email sent to me: It would appear that those who run and frequent that blog have more concern for the feeling of those who engage in Sodomy than for the teaching of the Holy Catholic Church. This is not surprising given that in the discussion none have self identified as Christian. I, from time to time, engage humanists on their own turf, but this is not my ministry. It is clear to me that humanism is the primary religion of those who frequent that blog. They have my prayers.
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