History repeating itself

This is a matter of mystery to me and if you have any ideas, please let me know.

I first started blogging at the buzzmachine site, after seeing Jeff Jarvis make a really rational presentation about the ability of us the people to see as well as any hired help at the newspapers. This happened prior to the campaign of 2000, and I started occasionally commenting there.

When the campaign began, lots of rightwing commenters started showing up and making huge and aggressive campaigns against posters who were liberal and sometimes the comments turned into long ongoing conversations/fights of hundreds if comments debating the philosophies, but always the commenters on the right wing kept going and kept citing other wingers, never conceding that they were wrong, when they were proved wrong.

I still visit buzzmachine, and Jeff Jarvis has concentrated on the populist journalism aspect of his craft, most of the rabid have disappeared.

I commented recently (July 4th) there about a reference to muslim reaction to the West, that they felt threatened, and I pointed out that I had seen this occur in the congress when the debate went on for several days about the gay marriage amendment when appropriations were ignored, that our wingers felt threatened by Western thought as well. The whole bunch of wingers were just waiting the opportunity to return.

‘Radicals are more likely to feel that the West threatens … their way of life’ - reminds me of the debaters in the House who took up much of the time of the 109th Congress that should have been devoted to appropriations, crying out that their marriages are threatened by Gay Marriage. Also, their kids and their morals and their precious bodily fluids … well, maybe that wasn’t quite what some of them said, but really, radicals of the televangelist variety are hyping the threat that our enlightened world presents to their sense of well-being just as much as the ‘mullahs’ are. No wonder we have the bomb throwers (kill for life!) on the right here, as well as in the Middle East. Though our homegrown commandos are not as effective.

And then we have the consequential rejoinders. -

Dawn Says:

July 4th, 2007 at 1:43 pm
The ironic thing is, Hollywood is more responsible for them hating us than Washington is, but few people will accept that reality because it doesn’t fall in line with their political agenda.
Janet Says:

July 4th, 2007 at 2:13 pm
That the educated from the Iraq –doctors would seek to join the radicals tells us that it is time to find better/more meaningful solutions to solve this situation.
When the middle class, and upper middle class which these people are, seek to side with the terrorsts, dialogue and diplomacy is a must and should be a part of whatever is decided on to establish a withdrawal plan from Iraq ASAP.
Fuck Mohammed Says:

July 4th, 2007 at 5:22 pm
Mohammed was a fucking asshole who was jealous of Christ and tried to rip off everything he could from Christianity without being caught.
penny Says:

July 4th, 2007 at 10:32 pm
Of for God’s sake, put a fork in it. Islam is the Religion of Prpetual Rage. It is inherent in its core beliefs. Pick up a Koran which is lived with a much prescribed adherence as possible.
It contains permissions for jihad, dhimmitude, wife beating, polygamy, the vilification of Jews and all of the other quaint rantings of Mohammed. So, who’s really surprised that the dysfuntion and inherent violence of that kind of indoctrination is spread across all class, incomes and education levels.
The spineless little Koolaid drinkers on the left with eyes wide shut are still uttering the long expired moral equivalences, multi-culti garbage(no, all cultures aren’t equal) and pc platitudes. They can’t for the life of themselves, which is becoming more and more literal as in Britain, name the enemy.
Islam is a twisted cult. Deal with it or prove other wise.
Hey, Ruth, as ludicrous as ever, when Christians start strapping on suicide belts and doing car bombs against other religions, your drivel can be taken seriously. Muslims want more respect the West?….oh, please, respect is a reward for good deeds. Even the alleged moderate Muslims have been a big failure with their silence. After all of the carnage in the name of their religion, not one mass protest or newspaper ad denouncing terrorism in any country where they are safe to do so.
Their silence in London is deafening.
Janet - dialogue and diplomacy with who??? What parallel universe are you from? Rogue terrorists aren’t heads of state and half of he ME heads of state support terrorists. Iran ring a bell? It 24/7 states it will blow Israel off of the map. We’ve done diplomacy before. Remember Arafat? The outcome of the Oslo Accords? Get a brain.
Waiting for the nuanced drivel from the increasingly ignored
journalist crowd to follow…..
kat Says:

July 4th, 2007 at 11:22 pm
Bravo, Penny, for telling it exactly as it is. Thank God, there are still people who realize, that muslims, and muslims alone, are responsible for the terrorism that islam breeds.
Eric Says:

July 5th, 2007 at 3:51 am
Jeff, it appears “penny” has been released into the community again. You may want to notify the authorities.
Ruth Says:

July 5th, 2007 at 5:18 am
Thanks for illustrating the radical alienation by example, Pen.
Nico Says:

July 5th, 2007 at 6:02 am
Here’s an interesting article from the Observer, written by Hassan
Butt, who obviously is a “former radical islamist”. Butt also
disagrees with Friedman, saying that islamistic terrorists are
motivated by their belief that the whole world is a Dar al-harb
(”House of War”) in which fighting against the “infidels” is
allowed. He criticizes islamic organizations who don’t want to
talk about violence in Islam and calls for an open discussion of
“the ideas that fuel terrorism” in order to overcome the
anachronistic concept of killing in the name of Islam.
Peter Says:

July 5th, 2007 at 6:02 am
The day you start to believe in god you have left somewhere, and
more or less, the rational world. Christians have done their part
of massacres in the name of god. All the three religions of the
book are full of hate messages. Unfortunately it is not the
exclusivity of Islam. The notion of ONE god conveys the notion of
one truth. When you think there is only one truth in this world,
you have enter the world on intolerance.
penny Says:

July 5th, 2007 at 7:45 am
That’s the best you can do, Eric?
If you have a problem with what I’ve written, how about in an
intelligent manner refuting it. Your empty utterance is just that.

Ruth, I don’t feel alienated. My opinions are pretty mainstream.
You need to get out more.
Eric Says:

July 5th, 2007 at 8:01 am
Jeff, it’s worse than before. Now she thinks she’s rational.
robertdfeinman Says:

July 5th, 2007 at 8:47 am
I don’t know why this is surprising. Wasn’t the Russian social
unrest starting in the 1860’s and extending through 1917 a product
of the intelligentsia? Wasn’t the same thing true of the French
Enlightenment? How about the American Revolution?
It is those who have studied world politics and social structures
who formulate the big plans for change. Peasants just riot.
What would happen if self proclaimed press pundits were actually
forced to do a little reading before making their pronouncements?
One needs to take a test before driving a car, but launching world
war three from a press pulpit requires no credibility.
Greg0658 Says:

July 5th, 2007 at 8:52 am
People are a product of their environment. That Middle East is
such a place to live in these days. Its so hot and dry. It must
have been lush at one time in history, because there is oil in
them sands. Dinosaur days I guess.
There is an answer towards eternal earth peace that works (for the
time being) humans stop joining your eggs and sperm.
In this world without humans is there peace when a lion and
elephant fight for the wateringhole?
Since all that is pshycobabble (again - one more time) I still
like the KISS (keep it simle stupid)
Do unto others as your wish others do unto you. I’ve been taught
Jesus (aka God) said that.
penny Says:

July 5th, 2007 at 9:23 am
Parody or channelling Ruth, Greg0658?
Robert, as strange as it might seem to you, the jihadis’
intelligentsia aren’t exactly in the same league as those leading
the “French Enlightenment” or “American Revolution” if that was
your point. I think history tends to demonstrate that peasants get
slaughtered(think Stalin, Mao) more than riot. I don’t think
historians will be viewing global jihad as a peasant uprising. Or
maybe in the spirit of this thread there was another point your
were trying to make.
Eric, what are you expecting Jeff to do?
Harry Says:

July 5th, 2007 at 12:06 pm
Penny nailed it. Islam is mass psychosis masquerading as a
religion. I’m an atheist and know all religions are a crock of
shit, but Islam is an especially dangerous opiate for the masses.
Tansley - addendum Says:

July 5th, 2007 at 2:23 pm
Unfortunately, penny is right, at the core of her original post.
The Quran is rife with the santioning of all manner of violent
behaviors against ‘infidels.’
HOWEVER,
The Christian Bible is also rampant with the licensing of all
manner of atrocities, ‘in the name of the Lord’ the relegation of
women to mere articles of property with no inherent rights or
freedoms, sanctioning of selective extermination of hostile races
(read: genocide), etc., etc.
I have a solution, however:
A New Reality TV show: CRUSADES 21st CENTURY, featuring radical
and reactionary elements of Islamic Fundamentalists pitted in a
‘SURVIVOR’ style setting, with ‘FEAR FACTOR’ style challenges and
‘AMERICAN GLADIATOR’ style combat sports events, against
Reactionary Right-Wing Christian Fundamentalists. We can line up
sponsors probably overnight… This would be a MONSTER, easily
outstripping ‘IDOL’…
Think I’m crazy? Somebody run this one past Citizen Murdoch and
see what happens….
Ruth Says:

July 5th, 2007 at 2:44 pm
Loving Penny’s ‘right’ness; on getting out more; see
http://www.correntewire.com/amber_waves_of_grain
penny Says:

July 5th, 2007 at 3:14 pm
Tansley - so what? This is then, that was now. None of us were
alive then. So, what’s your point? That the historic bad behavior
of any group of people negates the ability of their ancestors to
have an opinion about the bad behavior of a group now?
Same old circular muddled lefty groupthink. No logic applied. No
reasoning skills.
Modern Christians understand the Bible as metaphorical, Muslim’s
view the Koran as literal. Christianity is a religion of
conscience rather than prescribed behaviors. Huge difference.
Want to share with us the modern atrocities and body count of
Christian fundamentalists vs 9/11, Beslan, Bali, London, the
moscow theater, the Taliban, Madrid, etc, etc, etc? Trying even to
demonstrate equivalence between fundamental Christians and Muslim
terrorists like your friend Ruth is flippant, craven and
illogical.
We are a pluralistic society that does tolerate the entire
spectrum of political and religious thought and practice. Islam
doesn’t. Your comments put you closer to them than us. I guess no
one has pointed that out to you before.
Tansley - addendum Says:

July 5th, 2007 at 6:20 pm
EXCUSE me, penny dahling…
Modern Moderate Moslems acknowlege that the Quran is subject to
interpretation. They are not militant. More circular, muddled,
crack-brained extreme right-wing thinking. Pitiable, really….and
pathetically predictable.
Modern atrocities and body counts of Christian fundamentalists,
eh? I suppose you’ve forgotten all the executions of innocent
African Americans carried out by the fundamentalist ‘christian’
members of the Ku Klux Klan…how very convenient on your part… And
perhaps you’ve forgotten Francisco Franco’s bombing of the Basque
village of Guernica, courtesy of his Nazi pals in Berlin? Let’s
also not forget the Catholic Church’s tacit nod to the Nazis
during WWII…who WERE, after all, exterminating JEWS… Or perhaps
you don’t consider history ‘modern’ until it’s around circa 1990
or so?
So much for your ‘pluralistic society.’ “Modern Christians
understand the bible as ‘metaphorical?’” This doubtless explains
their unilateral condemnation of gays…very metaphorical, that…kind
of like the POT calling the kettle BLACK. Or their wholesale
attack on abortion….despite the continued evidence of the planets’
resources being depleted due to overpopulation, of which they seem
to have no grasp.
You can’t just draw an arbitrary line across the timetables of
history and say “what has gone before THIS time doesn’t COUNT, and
what has happened after THIS time is really ALL that counts.’
People have MEMORIES, penny…like the Japanese remembered Commodore
Perry’s ‘gunboat diplomacy’ in Tokyo harbor when they flew their
attack on our PEARL harbor….or like the way the Bosnian Serbs
remembered all the years of this or that slight or transgression
when they set upon a path of ethnic cleansing of their local
Moslem community… Now THAT was some Christian TOLERANCE at work,
that was…
An elegant reconstruction of the current administration’s skills
at cherrypicking information. Bravo. No, we don’t tolerate the
entire spectrum of political and religious thought…only the partss
that are congruent with the AGENDA of the RULING PARTY…
penny Says:

July 5th, 2007 at 7:37 pm
Tansley - two things, only an preening idiot resorts to “dahling”
and the efforts of your globalized rant stands for what it is,
meritless.
Same your energy for someone else. Our dialogue has ended.
kat Says:

July 5th, 2007 at 10:35 pm
And let’s not forget that Godless regimes have murdered far more
people than anyone. If you were to tote up the casualty count
achieved by those few officially atheistic regimes the world has
seen, the atheists have the religioniists beat by miles. Notorious
atheist butchers like Stalin, Mao Zedong, Pol Pot,Kim Il Sung and
Enver Hoxha killed and slaughtered their own people at an
unheard-of rate. When it comes to piling up a body count,
atheists take second place to none…even muslims who are presently
murdering innocents in every corner of the world.
Ruth Says:

July 6th, 2007 at 4:55 am
Wow, that’s impressively delusional. All not agreeing with the
radical right be informed, you are muslim terrorists. You oughta
take those prescrips, chillun.
Muhammad Says:

July 6th, 2007 at 7:36 am
Penny says “After all of the carnage in the name of their
religion, not one mass protest or newspaper ad denouncing
terrorism in any country where they are safe to do so. Their
silence in London is deafening.”
I say: Thank you Penny for inspiring us to apologize. The “Not in
Our Name” campaign will be launched with advertisements in
national newspapers on Friday under the title “Muslims United”.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uklatest/story/0,,-6760847,00.html
Truly your wisdom is bounteous. More fool the others for not
recognizing it. Please tell us what to do next.
kat Says:

July 6th, 2007 at 8:09 am
Next, accepot responsibility that today’s terrorism is a muslim
problem. Don’t blame Jews and Christians. Put the blame where it
belongs. Stop teaching hatred in your madrasas and mosques. Teach
love thy neighbor as thyself and that you can never expect the
world to convert to islam. Hell will freeze over before that
happens. Talk is cheap–I hear that from CAIR all the time–they
talk one thing and do another. You can’t talk islam is peace out
one side of your mouth and plan to kill innocents out the other
side. Love Jews, Buddhists, atheists, Christians, and muslims.
Allow churches and temples in your countries–respect
non-mohammedans.
Eric Says:

July 6th, 2007 at 8:24 am
Some wise words there, Kat. If only all religions met your high
standards.
Rich Drees Says:

July 6th, 2007 at 8:27 am
Penny said, “Modern Christians understand the Bible as
metaphorical”
You mean modern Christians like Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, Fred
Phelps and their ilk?
Penny what is the real root over your hatred? Don’t like humus? Is
it because they invented algebra? What were your grades in high
school?
kat Says:

July 6th, 2007 at 9:08 am
I thought the Greeks( Diophantus) invented algebra and others just
translated the works of Greeks, Babylonians, Indians,
Chinese,etc.. Translation is not invention.
mrs. ibrahim al-jafaari Says:

July 6th, 2007 at 10:41 am
Christian Terrorists like Eric Rudolph, Terry Nichols, and Timothy
McVeigh are pretty scary, that’s for sure. The 168 killed by the
Christian terrorists in OKC were horrible, and the blame for that
atrocity can be laid directly at the feet of rightwing hate speech
here in America. Praise Allah that we have folks like the Southern
Poverty Law Center keeping track of these militias, Nazi’s, and
white supremacist Christians.
Until Christian terrorists and their supporters (Dobson, Perkins,
et alia) are imprisoned and tortured (excuse me, provided with
“enhanced interrogation techniques) into giving up their
co-conspirators none of us will really be safe.
Rich Drees Says:

July 6th, 2007 at 10:42 am
Actually, it’s fairly fuzzy as to whom should shoulder the
responsibility for making millions of high school students raise
the question “But when am I going to use this in the real world?”
From Wikipedia-
“The Hellenistic mathematician Diophantus has traditionally been
known as “the father of algebra” but debate now exists as to
whether or not Al-Khwarizmi should take that title from
Diophantus.[2] Those who support Al-Khwarizmi point to the fact
that much of his work on reduction is still in use today and that
he gave an exhaustive explanation of solving quadratic equations.
Those who support Diophantus point to the fact that the algebra
found in Al-Jabr is more elementary than the algebra found in
Arithmetica and that Arithmetica is syncopated while Al-Jabr is
fully rhetorical.[3] Another Persian mathematician, Omar Khayyam,
developed algebraic geometry and found the general geometric
solution of the cubic equation. The Indian mathematicians Mahavira
and Bhaskara II, and the Chinese mathematician Zhu Shijie, solved
various cases of cubic, quartic, quintic and higher-order
polynomial equations.”
kat Says:

July 6th, 2007 at 12:36 pm
mrs. ibrahim al-jafaar-
We view those guys as criminals–you view your terrorists as
celebrated martyrs doing allah’s bidding. Until muslims admit that
the acts are terrorism and speak against jihadists, we will never
be safe. Condoning and excusing islamic terrorism by refusing to
acknowlege it, and constantly changing the subject to OKC, makes
one an enabler of these barbaric goons.
Eric Says:

July 6th, 2007 at 2:10 pm
Jeff, now it’s serious. “kat” has been released into the community
as well.
ronjazz Says:

July 7th, 2007 at 8:26 am
there is no more barbaric goon on the planet today than the great
christian george w. bush, and no more hateful, non-thinking,
murderous cult that those that follow him. penny is one such
cultist; no amount of logic or fact will shake her fundamentalist
mindset nor her racial hatred and fear. her approach is right in
line with fundamentalist muslims, and her solutions exactly the
same as theirs.
chico haas Says:

July 7th, 2007 at 7:10 pm
Citizen Journalism!

okay, now will you tell me, who are these people? and what keeps them fighting for that 20% of the opinionholders still being polled, who think that the cabal in the white house is keeping us safe, and that there really was an attempt by Saddam Hussein to buy yellow cake and that criminal malfeasance in high office is our ideal? Just wanna know where they are, and if you know them, too?